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    Canonfire :: View topic - The Hold of the Sea Princes and Yeomanry, slavery
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    The Hold of the Sea Princes and Yeomanry, slavery
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 24, 2006
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    Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:01 am  
    The Hold of the Sea Princes and Yeomanry, slavery

    I will share some of my very sketchy notes for a possible future campaign based/ starting in that area.


    Slave stuff in The Hold

    Slaves' conditions and origins

    Slaves here enjoy some protections and privileges of a limited nature.
    A few manage to buy their own freedom. Many come from the Amedio, but slavery is not based on ethnic origins and slaves of various backgrounds may be found in the Hold.
    Most slaves work in agriculture or industry (logging, mining). Conditions vary widely, depending on work and the nature of the master.


    Slave raids?
    Ignore all that Scarlet Brotherhood sourcebook stuff about the Holders launching big raids into the jungle and capturing natives.
    Why bother with all that, risking your life in the green hell, when you can just drop anchor on the coast and buy captives from any of several native tribes? Much smarter.

    Prince Jeon II
    He's a romantic, enamored of foreign fashions and literature. Wants to convert the slaves into serfs (which in this context would actually make it harder to free them and would also make it harder for their masters to transfer them to other masters). Some people think he is nuts.


    Yeomanry attitude about slavery
    The Yeomanry League has no ideological commitment to oppose slavery in distant parts of the world. Nor does it outlaw the transit of slaves through its territory, provided the slaves are few in number, well guarded, and documented in the correct papers.
    It's specifically the "use of slaves" (words from the Folio) the neighboring Hold that the Yeoman gov't condemns, mainly for reasons of security and economics. Amedian cannibals and human sacrificing cultists have escaped into the Hool Marshes to bedevil the people of the southern League territories. The farmers of the League resent being out competed by the latifundia of the Sea Princes.



    ...Thoughts?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:09 am  

    Interesting notes, especially the last two.

    I'm assuming something closer to 576 than the LG era. Do you see any connections between the slave-taking by the Yellow Sails and the Slavelords (IMC they are two separate though related groups) and the Sea Princes; specifically, slaves taken by the former being sold to the latter?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:43 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Interesting notes, especially the last two.

    I'm assuming something closer to 576 than the LG era. Do you see any connections between the slave-taking by the Yellow Sails and the Slavelords (IMC they are two separate though related groups) and the Sea Princes; specifically, slaves taken by the former being sold to the latter?


    Yes, pre GHWars or just no GHWars.

    Not sure about connections. I need to reread the Slavelords modules, which I think I have in PDF form.
    I imagine it would be highly illegal to buy people kidnapped from friendly states. Not that some won't be smuggled in.

    RE last two items: Do you mean the notes on Prince Jeon and on the Yeomanry League?

    Which bits did you find most interesting?
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:17 am  

    Quote:
    Why bother with all that, risking your life in the green hell, when you can just drop anchor on the coast and buy captives from any of several native tribes? Much smarter.


    If communities on the Amedio coast are profiting from the slave trade instead of merely being exploited by it, you might consider the combination of regular trade with the Flanaess and extravagant wealth could result in cities comparable in terms of size and modernity to the cities of the Flanaess itself.

    I'm thinking of something like the City of Thieves in Robert E. Howard's "The Tower of the Elephant."

    There's still plenty of room for lost cities and isolated tribes in the Amedio's interior.

    Quote:
    Prince Jeon II
    He's a romantic, enamored of foreign fashions and literature. Wants to convert the slaves into serfs (which in this context would actually make it harder to free them and would also make it harder for their masters to transfer them to other masters). Some people think he is nuts.


    Treasures of Greyhawk implies Jeon II may be a descendant of a younger brother of King Tavish III of Keoland, who came to the Hold of the Sea Princes to make a name for himself after Tavish III's death at the Siege of Westkeep.

    How would you distinguish between the culture of the Sea Princes and that of the Lordship of the Isles?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:04 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Quote:
    Why bother with all that, risking your life in the green hell, when you can just drop anchor on the coast and buy captives from any of several native tribes? Much smarter.


    If communities on the Amedio coast are profiting from the slave trade instead of merely being exploited by it, you might consider the combination of regular trade with the Flanaess and extravagant wealth could result in cities comparable in terms of size and modernity to the cities of the Flanaess itself.

    I'm thinking of something like the City of Thieves in Robert E. Howard's "The Tower of the Elephant."

    There's still plenty of room for lost cities and isolated tribes in the Amedio's interior.

    Quote:
    Prince Jeon II
    He's a romantic, enamored of foreign fashions and literature. Wants to convert the slaves into serfs (which in this context would actually make it harder to free them and would also make it harder for their masters to transfer them to other masters). Some people think he is nuts.


    Treasures of Greyhawk implies Jeon II may be a descendant of a younger brother of King Tavish III of Keoland, who came to the Hold of the Sea Princes to make a name for himself after Tavish III's death at the Siege of Westkeep.

    How would you distinguish between the culture of the Sea Princes and that of the Lordship of the Isles?



    I use the real Lordship of the Isles as a basis for some aspects of the fictional, GH Lordship. With Freeport, from Green Ronin. But clans played up, not just Pirates of the Caribbean type stuff. And no guns. The ships are oar and sail vessels.

    Whereas I go with a more Warhammer/Pellinore/Britfantasy feel for the Hold. Influenced by the UK modules, natch.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:13 am  

    RE Amedio coast cities, I like what you suggest.


    If I do not add actual large cities on the jungle coast, I will use Sasserine and Cauldron, but modified. Maybe the Olman were the true founders of the cities. You might find Olman architecture in the older areas.


    To place a city on the Amedio coast, an idea I like, I see a river mouth that looks like a possible good spot.
    If I want to keep the Olman civilization more mysterious, I may make this coastal city Suel dominated.but these are the savage jungle Suloise, not SB types or civilized Flanaess Suel.
    The rulers would be clad in barbaric splendor, cat skins and ancient jewels.
    Very REH, as you suggest.
    GreySage

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    Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:25 pm  

    Besides Sasserine and Cauldron, there is Fort Blackwell on the tip of the Amedian peninsula. It is featured in The Savage Tide AP and in my adventure in the Canonfire! Chronicles, #1. Wink

    SirXaris
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:39 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Besides Sasserine and Cauldron, there is Fort Blackwell on the tip of the Amedian peninsula. It is featured in The Savage Tide AP and in my adventure in the Canonfire! Chronicles, #1. Wink

    SirXaris


    Sounds fun.
    Thanks for sharing.

    IMC the equivalent would be built and operated by the natives.

    That is the core difference between my version and SKR/Mona version.

    The coastal tribes are active participants in the slave trade, without whom it would be impossible to carry on under existing conditions. These guys aren't weak victims acted upon by a strong outside power. They know exactly what they are doing and they like it. Profit! Crush your enemies!

    Foreigners going into the jungle thinking they will round up some slaves from among the savages are very likely to be captured and enslaved. If lucky. They might be sacrificed or end up in a stewpot.
    The Suloise here have probably eaten some Scarlet Brotherhood missionaries, too.
    Omnomnom.
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    Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:02 am  

    Note:

    I admire and appreciate the work that SKR and Mona have done on GH.
    Bigtime.
    So I hope nobody reads my comments about customization and taking things in a different direction as negative critique. Far from it! These guys rock the house.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jul 28, 2001
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    Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:14 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Do you see any connections between the slave-taking by the Yellow Sails and the Slavelords (IMC they are two separate though related groups) and the Sea Princes; specifically, slaves taken by the former being sold to the latter?

    I deliberated whether to post in this thread or in Slaves, serfs, unfree, indents, which you'all started a month before this one back in 2015. Ultimately, I decided to post here, mostly because of smillan_31's question, quoted above.

    First, I'll note that your discussions have warmed me to Sasserine and Cauldron although I expect to overhaul them almost completely. I've already started developing "Fort" Blackwell as a small town of just under 2,000 souls (adapting and incorporating some of SirXaris's work in the forums as well as his Agnosco Adventum from the Canonfire! Chronicles).

    But to smillan_31's question, I think that the importation of slaves from the Amedio Jungle (primarily) and elsewhere (secondarily) for over a century (i.e., since c. 453–464 CY) suggests that some of the Sea Princes must be trading slaves beyond the Hold (e.g., to the Slave Lords of the Pomarj, Aerdi nobles of the South Province and elsewhere in the Great Kingdom of Aerdy, lowland plantations of Shar, Lordship of the Isles, etc.) AND below it (i.e., to denizens of UnderOerth).

    This last point is what I want to contribute to this thread: the proximity of significantly developed UnderOerth locales—and the yuan-ti of H'Thiss Kaa—suggests that during the past century, a growing number of enslaved peoples are traded to monstrous humanoids for labor and worse ends.

    What do you think?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:19 am  

    Wow! I should check in to CF! more frequently. Glad this discussion helped warm you up to Sasserine and Cauldron. I had planned on taking my campaign there as part of a reworked Savage Tide back when this discussion first took place, but the party took things in a wildly different direction.

    Your thinking went somewhat in the same direction as mine, with the details IMC being that the Azure Sea slave trade from the Sea Princes and Yellow Sails/Slavers feeding into slave markets in the eastern and central Flanaess, even as far as "non-evil" states like the Iron League, Greyhawk, the Urnsts, and Wild Coast. Slavery is frowned upon in Dyvers, Nyrond and Almor but not strongly opposed.

    I don't consider any state to have absolutely outlawed slavery outright, but it's just not a supported part of the economy while also facing widespread opposition by the religious majority of the nation. This in places like Furondy, Veluna, Verbobonc, majority of Keoland, the Uleks, Sterich, and Geoff. Some southern Keoish provinces still have serfdom by law. None of this prevents merchants and nobles in these nations who have diversified business interests from investing in legal (and sometimes non-legal) slaving ventures.

    IMC the Underdark is still semi-mythical so slave-trading with those markets doesn't really factor in. Haven't really thought about the yuan-ti although that would definitely be a possibility.

    One thing I haven't really discussed is the trade in humanoid slaves done by more powerful humanoid tribes against weaker humanoid tribes in the Pomarj with the Slavers and other slaver ventures from places like Greyhawk, Onnwal, the Wild Coast, etc... Goblins, Kobolds, and to a greater extent Orcs and Hobgoblins don't make ideal slaves but the inherent racism against humanoids held by most humans raises far less ethical issues for such slavery. IMC having a "civilized" goblin slave as an attendant, or half-orc bearer and bodyguard slaves is seen as fashionable in some places.

    Almost forgot, the note about Prince Jeon was mainly of interest to me in how it factors in to the internal politics of the Sea Princes and their foreign policy.
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