Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - Angels
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Angels
    Author Message
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:44 am  
    Angels

    Not devas. Not archons. Not guardinals or those other odd upper planar critters. Angels - Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions etc.

    Do they exist in GH? Do you use them in your campaign?

    If yes, which deities or deity do they serve or are they free roaming? How do you use them?

    GVD
    _________________
    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 674
    From: Bronx, NY

    Send private message
    Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:47 pm  

    No they don't. This is Greyhawk, not Judeo-Christianity Hawk. That WotC for some reasons decided to lump solars, planetars, and devas together and declare them Angels, as well as use other real world names connected to angels in various books, does not mean said real world groups or types or what have you of angels now exist in Greyhawk.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:09 pm  

    Samwise wrote:
    No they don't. This is Greyhawk, not Judeo-Christianity Hawk. That WotC for some reasons decided to lump solars, planetars, and devas together and declare them Angels, as well as use other real world names connected to angels in various books, does not mean said real world groups or types or what have you of angels now exist in Greyhawk.


    Hi Sam,

    Telling you nothing you do not already know, Judeo-Christian concepts abound in (A)D&D, and in Greyhawk (sometimes by necessary implication that results from the use of common "core" rule books, other times more uniquely).

    Devils and demons. Saints (even named Cuthbert ;)). Etc. Early on Angels got AD&Ded in an early Dragon as did good ol Lucifer. A number of Wotc and d20 products expand the possibilities.

    I do take your point. Nothing mandates angels in GH. Nothing forbids them, by the same token, I think.

    I am interested if anyone has used angels in their GH campaign and how they used them. I do not mean this to be a "canon" exposition, necessarily.

    I am thinking about how angels might be employed in a GH campaign. Has anyone practical experience? Which gods were they attached to? How did you use them?

    I do not mean to give insult to anyone's belief system, if that is an issue for anyone.

    GVD Smile
    _________________
    GVD
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 14, 2002
    Posts: 180
    From: Patra, Greece

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 11, 2005 12:24 am  

    I remember once I read a statement of Gygax saying that he did not intend to imbue Christian flavor to the game.

    Still, I find GVD`s question intriguing. My opinion is that it is natural to use Angels and Saints in our game. The key argument, as GVD already asserted, is the fact that demonic/diabolic entities from medieval texts do indeed appear in our game.

    In my game I would like to incorporate Angels, but the rules do not help. Maybe I should look for a medieval text with descriptions of the Angels, like grodog did for his Demonomicon articles.

    PS. GVD, I would like to inform you that I posted a comment for your Ur-Flan adventure.
    _________________
    "It is easier to milk a cow that stands still." Tzeliobas-Aristomenes, General Cleaning, Greyhawk Construction Company.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
    Posts: 551
    From: British Isles

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:04 am  

    how angels are to fit into my campaign has caused me some bother...i think I have some obsession about ordering and giving some clearer form to Greyhawk cosmology!

    I still refer to planetars as angels and devils and demons as such and not tanar'ri and whatever the other one is. the other terms ar eused but only by scholars of religion and the planes. most others including most of the clergies still use the common terms.

    If you plan on avoiding getting ivolved in the planar wars then there is not so great a problem. I try t keep things on Oerth as much as possible so angels really have the role of messengers of the gods. All the good gods have some angel servants / followers. These angels are used as messengers, tools of vengeance or justice just like the biblical angels were. Obviously some ar emore powerful than others and maybe some deities were once angels themselves. Some angels act as patrons of things much like patron saints and it is usually these angels that may rise to some form of power.

    I enjoyed the Book of Exalted Deeds but thought it in Greyhawk terms it unnecessarily introduced a whole bunch of celestial beings who just complicated the hodge podge of powers already in place. The Talisid of the Guardinals for example...all with their own prestige classes...i decided to make the guardinals servants and allies of Ehlonna and her representatives on the neutral good planes as in my campaign Ehlonna resides on Arborea (thats a whole different post from a while ago about my axing of the Seldarine and replacing them with Greyhawk deities that already exist).

    So for example Bharrai the Great Mother Bear is now a servant of Ehlonna and the patron of wizards and magical scholars who worship Ehlonna. In fact I have made the Sentinals of Bharrai an order of wizards within Ehlonna's church. This is just one example.

    I find that religion and the like in Greyhawk is way too messy and so I like to simplify it a bit in terms of hierarchy and other areas so the players and myself dont feel bogged down by it and it actually helps me to give my campaign a clearer sense of identity.

    So I think angels should be present but in a background role as messengers and agents of the good deities.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 23, 2004
    Posts: 9
    From: naples, italy

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:37 pm  

    hi,

    in the Christian tradition there are 9 kinds of angels, full descripted by Dante in his "Divine Comedy", but in D&d we have only 5 group of angels: Solar, Planetar, Astral Deva, Monadic Deva and Movanic Deva.

    I suggest to remove the D&D names for the angels ( very cacophonic IMHO ) and introduce new angelic name:

    Solar --> Seraph'im
    Planetar --> Cherub'im

    both called simply archangel

    Astral Deva --> Trhones
    Monadic Deva --> Dominions
    Movanic Deva --> Virtues

    all known simply as angels
    Novice

    Joined: Jan 09, 2005
    Posts: 1


    Send private message
    Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:29 am  

    In my opinion angels, saints and similar creatures are very similar to demons and devils. They are made of the prime material of the planes in which they live and act.
    The eternal fight between good and evil is embodied by the bloody wars between the upper planes and the lower planes.
    But in our D&D experiences, in our adventures, our PCs play the part
    of the good guys, replacing the upper planes champions...

    So these beautifull creatures are only seen as messengers or models of perfection.

    In order to generate a more equal multiverse it is necessary a compendium for angels, saints, etc, like the BOOKN OF VILE DARKNESS...

    We could call it THE BOOK OF CELESTIAL BRIGHTNESS, maybe!

    Quote:
    I suggest to remove the D&D names for the angels ( very cacophonic IMHO ) and introduce new angelic name:

    Solar --> Seraph'im
    Planetar --> Cherub'im

    both called simply archangel

    Astral Deva --> Trhones
    Monadic Deva --> Dominions
    Movanic Deva --> Virtues

    all known simply as angels


    I agree with you, and I will suggest something like this at our italian site of GH (I will suggest also the idea of the book reguarding angels... TBOCB)!

    Come and visit this site!

    www.greyhawk.it

    My nick is Shandromar there!
    bye bye
    _________________
    And she's buying a stairway to heaven...
    CF Admin

    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 178
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:18 am  

    Welcome to the forums Artemius!

    While I agree with you that the PC's often take the roles as the champions of good, WotC already has the Book of Exalted Deeds, it covers many types of celestial beings as well as saints. Wink

    The PC's in any game will have support from the powers of good if they revere any of the gods of light. The celestials tend to be more subtle and less direct in their appearences, which leads many to assume they are less active.The Balance plays a key role in this I think, whereas the powers of evil are straight forward bent on destruction and domination of the Flanaess, the powers of good are often indirect and harder to read and less likely to be seen. Many people know of Nerull and many think of the Old One when demons are mentioned as well as Orcus, but few are as knowledgeable about the many good beings of the upper planes or know the difference between a deva or guardinal.

    In any case the problem of fitting in celestials into the christian mythos would be harder than making up something new..but thats me Cool
    _________________
    Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1076
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:19 am  

    Quote:
    The PC's in any game will have support from the powers of good if they revere any of the gods of light. The celestials tend to be more subtle and less direct in their appearences, which leads many to assume they are less active.The Balance plays a key role in this I think, whereas the powers of evil are straight forward bent on destruction and domination of the Flanaess, the powers of good are often indirect and harder to read and less likely to be seen.


    Revere the gods of light. Uh, in my games, its never that clear. Usually "revering the gods of light," is what they do when they are not adventuring. Adventuring is the euphamism that we all collectively call actions such as grave robbing, pillaging, piracy, war, and general mayhem. Think about it, the only structured method for gaining xp is slaying things.

    This is not a podium i am trying to stand on, I just don't have many characters that Angels (in the modern, kind, gentle, Sundy morning vein) would want to talk with. Use maybe, but not keep company with. (You know, when the angel of death is razing a city and needs a little help)

    I don't think that the gods of evil are more direct, they are just not as picky. If I remember my bible stories, rarely were "adventuring," types the chosen of God. Moses was the prince and chief scribe wasn't he? Abraham was a farmer I think. Not fun character classes.

    As to christian myth in D&D, i think it is present. In Greyhawk I see more of ecclesiastic history. The Pale, The Shield lands. The hints of the inquisition and the Sun god.

    In the game in which I play, we were having trouble with the local temple, so we tortured the priest. Relations are better now. He was possessed, and we drove out the spirit, but the church is still skeptical. If they are that picky imagine what an actually god of good would think.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 23, 2004
    Posts: 9
    From: naples, italy

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:56 am  

    The Book Of Vile Darkness describes the infernal and dthe abyssal inhabitants and powers. The book of Exalted deed, instead, the archon, the eladrin and the guardinal.
    But where are the angels?

    No books for solar, planetar and deva! No lords for the angels!

    It would be wonderful a product with a complete description of angelic choirs and the 12 solar.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 178
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:09 am  

    Anced_Math wrote:
    Quote:
    Revere the gods of light. Uh, in my games, its never that clear. Usually "revering the gods of light," is what they do when they are not adventuring. Adventuring is the euphamism that we all collectively call actions such as grave robbing, pillaging, piracy, war, and general mayhem. Think about it, the only structured method for gaining xp is slaying things.


    Hmm...Thinking about it I seem to recall some PC's that are paladins and clerics. If they are good clerics/paladins and loyal to their faiths they may receive aid from their patron diety. This may come in the form of aid from said patron deity in the form of some kind of celestial being. If you dont find much use of angelic/celestial beings in your game, kewl. But I for one usually have a paladin or cleric that has some type of tie or alliegence to the Upper Planes. Your mileage may vary. Confused

    Anced Math wrote:
    Quote:
    If I remember my bible stories, rarely were "adventuring," types the chosen of God. Moses was the prince and chief scribe wasn't he? Abraham was a farmer I think. Not fun character classes.


    Hmm ..again. Ok try this. Samson, David, Solomon and of course the various forms of warfare and begetting and begatting, putting to the sword, salting the earth, all that fun stuff throught the Old Testament. But this is Greyhawk and while Green Ronin did an excellent job with their Testement RPG its still about the 'Hawk Laughing


    Anced Math wrote:
    Quote:
    As to christian myth in D&D, i think it is present. In Greyhawk I see more of ecclesiastic history. The Pale, The Shield lands. The hints of the inquisition and the Sun god


    Similar, but not the same. <points to Samwises post above> Saints, enlightened beings, churches all those things have relevance in drawing from real world orders, examples and organizations but looking to hard at them is going in the wrong direction. IMHO.

    In short not too say that everyone cant be different but again your mileage may vary. The thing to remember that the Balance plays a big role in how deities and their followers can react and act on the Prime, while the evil beings tend to be destructive and focused it is more to do with the more violent tendencies of their natures than anything else. Subtle evil does exist and is a bit harder to fight against than a horde of slavering dretch.

    What is being missed here I think is the relative moral ambiguity inherent in Greyhawk. For instance, the beings of the upper planes rarely come to visit a group of maruading adventurers, except to aid the cleric being tortured Wink but its something that happens nonetheless, maybe not in every game, but still happens. While some celestials may be benign and ask little in return, others may have a less noble view of mortals, deeming them expendable in the long view. I was trying to point out that celestials are myriad in their approaches in their actions and thus less uniform than the usual encounter with PC types. In the case of an evil planar being there is a world of difference between say how a succubus and a pit feind or hezrou approach a problem. But all are pretty much uniform in the end result: destruction and pain for all who come in contact with them. And sometimes the same can be said of the good aligned celestials too..

    Anced Math wrote:

    Quote:
    Think about it, the only structured method for gaining xp is slaying things.


    I saved this one for last. <pulls up soapbox> Where does it say that good aligned parties cannot fight or slay maruading critters/evil monsters/bad guys with willful abandon? Taking it to the extreme this would mean that good aligned characters would never adventure and would never gain levels, which is not only insane but wrong. Good aligned PC's should act in accordance to alignment and principles to their beleifs, while rarer than say the standard bandit/opprotunists that Anced Math potrays they would be the type to recieve a celestial messenger for something other than a toss of the initiative die. Good is not stupid but neither does it condemn them to become an ineffective twit. <puts soapbox away>
    Thank you for bearing with me. I feel better now.
    Too put it better: Its time for some Grey in the Hawk..evil and good can be easy to spot or more difficult, depending on how the DM wants to portray it..with the alignment system inherent in D&D its easy to fall into the alignment categories of the monster entries rather than explore the veiwpoint of the creature/character involved.
    _________________
    Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1076
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:06 am  
    Dethhand all wrong

    Again, I am right and Deth is all wrong Wink .

    Just kidding, Deth. Actually, I was just unclear in my post, and I agree with you points, at least generally.

    The grey is what we (we in my campaign) struggle over, and have a great time doing it. IMC there is no Original Sin, at least not for Prime Material races. Orcs can be saved, and converted, as can drow, goblins, illithids (well maybe not illithids).

    As to the paladins and clerics, IMC they are more of the Old Testament, and even more of the Pope Urban II mold. Kill all the enemies of God. However, IMC, the church higher ups of Pholtus tend to wish for conversion. Merrikka, who plays a large role IMC, desires peace even more than conversion. So, we have churches who dispute the path of goodness.

    For obvious reasons, it is easier to play the crusading paladin rather the pacifist. We had a pacifist mage. Eaten by a hellhound.

    But, we play with moral ambiguity a lot, and there is internal debate among some of the party as to which path is the path of Goodness. They all get spells.

    So, Angels are generally absent in all their forms. After all, an Angel should be able to answer such questions. Thus, IMC, the only ones who are pure are off screen. No Galahads here. I liken it to the Round Table actually. My PC's are good, as the Knights are good, but it is Hazen who can use the Crook (find the Grail, whatever). In sum, the purpose of this and my earlier post was that because the go out and slay evil ones, there is debate over their goodness, even if the PCs are clear on the subject. In a polytheistic world, even the gods disagree. So, good, evil, they are more like clubs than moral berrings.

    (Anced summarily kicks the soapbox out from under Dethand. And is terribly disappointed as Deth simply floats in the air anyway. Smile )

    As to good aligned parties never gaining levels, I have asked the general question in the past, how do non adventurers gain levels? There should be a method, wouldn't you think. Long, slow and uninteresting, but conceptually at least, shouldnt a non adventuring mage be able to advance in spells? A dedicated monastic be able to come closer to his god?
    CF Admin

    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 178
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:53 am  

    Anced Math wrote:
    Quote:
    Again, I am right and Deth is all wrong

    Laughing
    wouldnt be the first nor the last time for that! I agree that alignments are like clubs..that people beat each other over the head with to get their points across with. Its a lot of fun Happy

    and hey leave my poor soapbox alone..its had enough abuse as it is! Wink
    _________________
    Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 23, 2004
    Posts: 1212


    Send private message
    Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:10 pm  

    +5 Club, the Splintermaker, AL: your choice, Ego: you bet; SA/purpose: destroy soapboxes, theories and arguments; knocks victims off pedestals; Limitation: usable only by those with conviction pure as an Angel.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 178
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:42 pm  

    Laughing

    Classic!
    _________________
    Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1076
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:46 pm  
    Cool

    Cool, I am glad you took my response in the light manner I intended.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 14, 2002
    Posts: 180
    From: Patra, Greece

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:23 am  

    contemassi wrote:

    Solar --> Seraph'im
    Planetar --> Cherub'im


    contemassi, how did you come up with the translations? Are the real-world names in Hebrew, and the corresponding Greyhawk names their translations in English?

    What about the following? How did you do the following map?
    contemassi wrote:

    Astral Deva --> Trhones
    Monadic Deva --> Dominions
    Movanic Deva --> Virtues


    tz
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 15, 2004
    Posts: 211


    Send private message
    Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:20 am  

    There's celestial-type beings at the tail end of the Gord the Rogue series. They ain't no cherribum, though.

    I'm to lazy to look up my book but I think they were described as beings of energy, light and power; and they were very righteous.

    Gord encoutered 'em when he was making his way to Tharizdun's prison which was located in the celestial realms (Empyreum?).
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:08 am  

    Wolfling wrote:
    I enjoyed the Book of Exalted Deeds but thought it in Greyhawk terms it unnecessarily introduced a whole bunch of celestial beings who just complicated the hodge podge of powers already in place. The Talisid of the Guardinals for example...all with their own prestige classes...i decided to make the guardinals servants and allies of Ehlonna and her representatives on the neutral good planes as in my campaign Ehlonna resides on Arborea (thats a whole different post from a while ago about my axing of the Seldarine and replacing them with Greyhawk deities that already exist).


    I felt precisely the same way. I like the Selderine, myself, and I am struggling with whether the Selderine would be served by "angels" or Eladrin.

    Your point about Ehlonna is also well taken, as she fits both an elven and a human model. I am struggling with how to properly emphasize her, IMC.

    Tzelios wrote:
    In my game I would like to incorporate Angels, but the rules do not help. Maybe I should look for a medieval text with descriptions of the Angels, like grodog did for his Demonomicon articles.


    I agree. Happy My initial question was spurred by my finally cracking open "The Encyclopedia of Angels," a d20 product from Fast Forward Games that takes a medieval/historical approach to angels and stats out dozens upon dozens with full write-ups. Despite being a Fast Forward Game, it is excellent. I would like to incorporate something like this but have never quite faced the issue, while also having a kind of embarassment of riches upon which I might draw.

    contemassi wrote:
    hi,

    in the Christian tradition there are 9 kinds of angels, full descripted by Dante in his "Divine Comedy", but in D&d we have only 5 group of angels: Solar, Planetar, Astral Deva, Monadic Deva and Movanic Deva.

    I suggest to remove the D&D names for the angels ( very cacophonic IMHO ) and introduce new angelic name:

    Solar --> Seraph'im
    Planetar --> Cherub'im

    both called simply archangel

    Astral Deva --> Trhones
    Monadic Deva --> Dominions
    Movanic Deva --> Virtues

    all known simply as angels


    This is a terrific idea. Exclamation The traditional hierarchy has "angels" and "arch-angels" as _lesser_ order of "angels" which is both confusing and contra to the way people immediately think of "arch-angels" as being the top of the hierarchy. I had not even thought about just dropping those parts of "the celestial choir!" DOH! Embarassed

    I am not sure about substituting the Solars/Devas etc. There are several d20 sourcebooks that fully stat out various "ranks" of angels, that I think I might use. But a great post! Happy

    Artemius_Hildebaran wrote:
    In my opinion angels, saints and similar creatures are very similar to demons and devils. . . .
    In order to generate a more equal multiverse it is necessary a compendium for angels, saints, etc, like the BOOKN OF VILE DARKNESS...

    We could call it THE BOOK OF CELESTIAL BRIGHTNESS, maybe! . . .

    I agree with you, and I will suggest something like this at our italian site of GH (I will suggest also the idea of the book reguarding angels... TBOCB)!

    Come and visit this site!

    www.greyhawk.it

    My nick is Shandromar there!
    bye bye


    Excellent post! Smile I completely agree about the need for a companion to the Book of Vile Darkness. The Book of Exalted Deeds should have been that book but it was not. As noted, it complicated matters while completely avoiding the obvious - the "Judeo-Christian" angel "model." Mad It was an okay book but not what I had hoped for.

    Dethand wrote:
    The Balance plays a key role in this I think, whereas the powers of evil are straight forward bent on destruction and domination of the Flanaess, the powers of good are often indirect and harder to read and less likely to be seen. . . .
    In any case the problem of fitting in celestials into the christian mythos would be harder than making up something new..but thats me Cool


    I think, I disagree, to a degree. You are exactly correct in the specifics of the Balance and the interplay of forces, IMO. I think, however, that angels may, and I emphasize "may," be an exception to the general rule.

    Evil gods tend to sit on the sidelines, except for our overexposed friend Iuz. Wink But evil "outsiders" have gone ape-do-do all over the Flanaess in their time.

    God gods sit in the bleechers with the evil deities. And their minions . . .?

    It seems to me that maybe, and I emphasize "maybe," the good gods are not so "set in their ways" as to let evil outsiders run amok and at the same time not use minions ("angels" etc.) that are available to them. Doubtless, good minions would not be going ape but neither would they be skulking around in the shadows. This is partly where I can see a "gap" in Greyliterature that might be filled and might be filled by "angels" etc.

    Anced_Math wrote:

    Adventuring is the euphamism that we all collectively call actions such as grave robbing, pillaging, piracy, war, and general mayhem. Think about it, the only structured method for gaining xp is slaying things. . . .

    I just don't have many characters that Angels (in the modern, kind, gentle, Sundy morning vein) would want to talk with.

    In the game in which I play, we were having trouble with the local temple, so we tortured the priest. Relations are better now.


    That last bit . . . ROFLMAO! Laughing I almost choked! THAT is funny! Happy

    With respect to the first part, I will again reference The Encyclopedia of Angels (d20 product by Fast Forward Entertainment). Angels are not necessarily all sweetness and light. They can be kinda badass. You don't get that in Sunday School but it is there is you scratch deeper. Angels may have more to say to your characters that you might think. I recommend the Encyclopedia of Angels.

    contemassi wrote:
    The Book Of Vile Darkness describes the infernal and dthe abyssal inhabitants and powers. The book of Exalted deed, instead, the archon, the eladrin and the guardinal.
    But where are the angels?

    No books for solar, planetar and deva! No lords for the angels!

    It would be wonderful a product with a complete description of angelic choirs and the 12 solar.


    Exactly. Smile That is why I started looking more closely at d20 "angel" products.

    Dethand wrote:

    What is being missed here I think is the relative moral ambiguity inherent in Greyhawk. For instance, the beings of the upper planes rarely come to visit a group of maruading adventurers, except to aid the cleric being tortured Wink but its something that happens nonetheless, maybe not in every game, but still happens. While some celestials may be benign and ask little in return, others may have a less noble view of mortals, deeming them expendable in the long view. I was trying to point out that celestials are myriad in their approaches in their actions and thus less uniform than the usual encounter with PC types. In the case of an evil planar being there is a world of difference between say how a succubus and a pit feind or hezrou approach a problem. But all are pretty much uniform in the end result: destruction and pain for all who come in contact with them. And sometimes the same can be said of the good aligned celestials too..

    . . .

    Too put it better: Its time for some Grey in the Hawk..evil and good can be easy to spot or more difficult, depending on how the DM wants to portray it..with the alignment system inherent in D&D its easy to fall into the alignment categories of the monster entries rather than explore the veiwpoint of the creature/character involved.


    This is a very good point. Greyhawk is morally ambiguous. I think "good" cannot be "good" the way Sunday School oversimplifies to all "hearts and flowers." We need to go back to the medieval concept of "Deus Irae(sp)" - the wrathful god. The Almighty is just that, he's pissed and he's not gonna take Mike Oba off of anyone. Now can you dig that? Or does Jehova need to go upside your head? Don't be steppin to Pelor, baby! Rao neither. He may be quiet and all that but he's got one wicked Crook you do NOT want to mess with. I see Greyhawk good as sort of Clint Eastwood good. Yeah. You know he is not the bad guy. And yeah. He gives it to the bad guys. But that squint. You are not dealing with someone who is going to be "beneficient" or "kindly." It's more Old Testament "good" - eye or an eye. And if you look like your thinking about taking his eye, he may take your's first. Just because.

    Anced_Math wrote:
    As to the paladins and clerics, IMC they are more of the Old Testament, and even more of the Pope Urban II mold. Kill all the enemies of God. However, IMC, the church higher ups of Pholtus tend to wish for conversion. Merrikka, who plays a large role IMC, desires peace even more than conversion. So, we have churches who dispute the path of goodness.

    So, Angels are generally absent in all their forms. After all, an Angel should be able to answer such questions.


    Not necessarily. Angels do not possess perfect knowledge. They also have agendas, general and personal. And they are falliable, hence fallen angels. They will even mate with mortals when no one is looking.

    I think it might be useful to give male angels a three day grow of beard and a slight hangover and see how that effects perception of them - again more of a Clint Eastwood "angel." Female angels . . . well, I don't want to offend anyone. But they are still "good!" Happy

    GVD
    _________________
    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1076
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:33 am  
    IMC

    Hey all. This is a great post, and I am enjoying it.

    I want to clarify what I am doing. It may or may not be of interest to you all. Probably not, but hopefully you wont throw me off.

    We have a fairly gritty campaign, or group of characters at least. Goodl and evil are very vague on the prime and among the prime races. Kobolds are evil, but gnomes consider them much more evil than humans do, due to their history. Same with orcs and elves.

    Only outsiders are Pure Evil or Pure Good. On occasion there will be a human or dwarf or other who is born pure evil. I had a stepmother who was like this. However, this is an aberation, not a generalization of the race. Orcs are generally evil, but not inherently evil.

    So to me, the multitude of Angels referenced is interesting, but not useful; IMC the few devas are really plenty. Not because they stay out of the world, but because there is not competition. They are "Pure Good," comfortable with the way their Gods made them, and do not strive or create strife over their form. There are other, more powerful Demons/Devils/Evil Ones, but there are uncounted multitudes of "Angels", IMC. The lower planes have so many forms because each is seeking a new form/state that gives them power, IMC.

    So, GVD, IMC, we just don't have the Clint Eastwood Angels. I am not opposed to them, but it is just not how I have handled it. I do toy with the blurring of the lines, rarely, but on occasion. I am going to use Jolly Anna the Succubus, from the Layers of the Abyss thread (everyone should visit this by the way). However, IMC, the nature of goodness is debated by men, and by gods, but the gods have little or no interest in mans perspective on the whole thing. IMC the Gods who are closest to the world, are the neutral gods, as they have the most in common to Men.

    Even the best of men, i.e. not those chosen by a God, but good men, like paladins, who have dedicated their lives to a purpose, falter. Angels, IMC, rarely have sympathy/empathy for men. There may even be a slight antimosity. My angels (devas, etc.) are more in the Angel of Death mold, the "The Lord Pholtus wishes you to do A, B, C, and D mold. Do as commanded type angels. Too much contact with men might contaminate them, so they stay away.

    Just the way I am doing this campaign.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 23, 2004
    Posts: 9
    From: naples, italy

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:55 pm  

    Quote:
    contemassi, how did you come up with the translations? Are the real-world names in Hebrew, and the corresponding Greyhawk names their translations in English?


    not exactly...
    Seraph'im is based on the hebrew root SRP wich means "to burn, to shine", so Seraph means "the shining one" ( seraph'im is plural ).
    Cherub'im is based on C + RB wich means "like" + "moltitude , great number, aboundance, plenty", so Cherub means "(poerful) like a moltitude" ( again cherub'im is plural ).

    Solar is linked with Sun ( in latin and so italian Sol is Sun ) so I assume that Solar and Seraph might be considered the same ( in D&D terms ).

    its not so easy for planetars!



    Quote:
    This is a terrific idea. Exclamation The traditional hierarchy has "angels" and "arch-angels" as _lesser_ order of "angels" which is both confusing and contra to the way people immediately think of "arch-angels" as being the top of the hierarchy. I had not even thought about just dropping those parts of "the celestial choir!" DOH! Embarassed


    is it so terrific? Laughing
    I think no! I know very well thw medieval tradition, but remember that "archangel" means simply "first angel" or "prince of angels" and that in the ancient hebrew tradition there isnt the hierarchy you mentioned.
    Infact Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Uriel are archangels but they are mentioned as the most important angels in Heaven!

    But those are poor considerations, in my previous post I noted that we have only five kinds of angels in D&D 3.5ed so i simply choosed names from the catholic tradition.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 14, 2002
    Posts: 180
    From: Patra, Greece

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:26 pm  

    Thanks conte.

    But Hebrew roots are made of no vowels?
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 23, 2004
    Posts: 9
    From: naples, italy

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:13 am  

    Tzelios wrote:
    Thanks conte.

    But Hebrew roots are made of no vowels?


    exactly!
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2583
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:04 pm  

    Quote:
    Evil gods tend to sit on the sidelines, except for our overexposed friend Iuz
    Kinda off subject, but caught my eye, I'll try and steer it back on topic...From the 83 set, take it as you will...

    Erythnul stalks ALL battlefields in order to strike fear and rout whenever possible.

    Hextor dwells on the plane of Acheron but can wander to those of Hell ot even Nirvana. Most FREQUENTLY Hextor treads the Prime Material Plane in search of warfare, aiding lawful evil, opposing good.

    (Incabulous) roams the Astral, Ethereal and Prime Planes, the latter during darkness only.

    Nerull stalks the many planes PARTICULARLY the Prime Material Plane when it is shrouded at night.

    Now either these four have been cheating, sneaking onto battlefields and skulking around at night under good's nose or in a case to tie it in with the topic at hand and latter canon methinks, they send their Hellish secondaries to aid as would then the good gods, in the celestials, to do work in their name.

    On a side tack, I would in game play try to stress use of the angelic types thru many spells such as commune, ressurection etc. Only makes sense.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 904
    From: Computer Desk

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:31 pm  

    Has anyone read the Dicefreaks.com "Gates of Hell" series.

    It provides a detailed look at Hell as written for GH, that provides some glimpses of the Upper Realms.

    For instance, Evil is always trying to corrupt upper beings and when they are successful the corrupted are hurled down to Hell as Demons, many of the Archdukes of Hell are disgraced "angels".

    It is an interesting system, through constant violent infighting the Lords of Hell are slain but occassionally (for immortal beings), they newly corrupted arrive with an attitude (being hurled down apparently puts them in an awful mood), fight ensues until a position within the heirarchy is decided.

    Lucifer the original Lord of Hell enjoyed these occasional chaotic flare ups, which was the reason Asmodeus staged his coup, reorganizing Hell along stricter LE ethos and providing a protocol to minimize the damage caused by the next arrivals from the upper realms.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1076
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:39 pm  
    Note

    Morte,

    I noted that somewhere else earlier, that many of the Gods walk the Oerth. Also, in Greyhawk Adventures, avatars are discussed heavily. However, i note that in one of the most common rants about FR is that the Gods walk the Realms.

    Any idea which is generally accepted. IMC the Gods manifest/interfere ONLY for a very, very specific purpose. Like Wee Jas protecting the Forgotten City.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:02 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    Quote:
    Evil gods tend to sit on the sidelines, except for our overexposed friend Iuz
    Kinda off subject, but caught my eye, I'll try and steer it back on topic...From the 83 set, take it as you will...

    Erythnul stalks ALL battlefields in order to strike fear and rout whenever possible.

    Hextor dwells on the plane of Acheron but can wander to those of Hell ot even Nirvana. Most FREQUENTLY Hextor treads the Prime Material Plane in search of warfare, aiding lawful evil, opposing good.

    (Incabulous) roams the Astral, Ethereal and Prime Planes, the latter during darkness only.

    Nerull stalks the many planes PARTICULARLY the Prime Material Plane when it is shrouded at night.

    Now either these four have been cheating, sneaking onto battlefields and skulking around at night under good's nose or in a case to tie it in with the topic at hand and latter canon methinks, they send their Hellish secondaries to aid as would then the good gods, in the celestials, to do work in their name.

    On a side tack, I would in game play try to stress use of the angelic types thru many spells such as commune, ressurection etc. Only makes sense.


    Not off topic at all! Happy Kind of an expansion of the topic.

    Has anyone any experience with using the (divine, infernal, celestial etc.) "Aspects" introduced in the (otherwise largely awful) Minatures Handbook from Wotc? They are a new monster type. Not avatars but pretty potent. I would think Aspects might well fall within a range of beings that includes saints, angels, arch-fiends etc.

    I have not used any "Aspects" but I do like the concept. Anyone have any thoughts or experience?

    GVD
    _________________
    GVD
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2583
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:46 am  

    GVD, I have never seen the minis handbook nor heard of aspects until now. Hmm, I'll look into it.

    Onto another sidetrack....summoned fiends have been unleashed on Oerth and other settings countless times. By the machinations of Arch-Prince types or through deific hand. I know of some rare cases where planetars or devas have been mentioned, but why won't good NPCs 'unleash' angelic hordes into the prime at the same pace? Is it some kind of ethics issue that mortals must suffer alone against the endless immortal tide of demons, devils, undead and more? Sure Pelor can't enter Oerth directly but why can't there be a permanent gate for his aasimar to aid good lands? If Iuz can do it why not St Cuthbert or Mayaheine? And if there could be one then evil might someday have their own 'Crook of Rao' to banish the good outsiders in a 'Flight of Feathers'. Ah well...
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1076
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:49 am  
    Follow Up

    I wanted to follow up with the intervention of Gods in Greyhawk. Other than Iuz, do gods generally walk this prime. IMC, they almost never interfere, and I have seen explinations that the Gods both do and do not come to the Flaness. Any thoughts?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:39 am  
    Re: Follow Up

    Anced_Math wrote:
    I wanted to follow up with the intervention of Gods in Greyhawk. Other than Iuz, do gods generally walk this prime. IMC, they almost never interfere, and I have seen explinations that the Gods both do and do not come to the Flaness. Any thoughts?


    IMC, no deity above demi-god/hero-deity will directly intervene, or even send an avatar. At best they act as "sponers" through their clergy.

    IMC, a demi-god/hero-deity will 'appear' to inspire or give advice/information or to accept veneration, perhaps, but will not intervene - ie fight or cast spells.

    I am, as yet, uncertain about an Aspect being dispatched. I am inclined to say they can be summoned.

    This to me is a largish distinction. IMC, the gods will not intervene of their own volition. But their minions or servitors can be summoned, willingly or unwillingly. I think Angels/Devas could be summoned as much as Devils/Demons. Aspects also appear susceptible to summoning but only if the principle agency is willing, I would think.

    GVD
    _________________
    GVD
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.33 Seconds