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One of the founders of our hobby and one of the most unsung contributors to Dungeons & Dragons, Len Lakofka has passed away at the age of 76.
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Len was also father of the Suel in Greyhawk, designer of their gods, and namesake of the Lendore Isles.
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    Canonfire :: View topic - Timing of Greyhawk Adventures Hardback
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    Timing of Greyhawk Adventures Hardback
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:54 pm  
    Timing of Greyhawk Adventures Hardback

    I’m working on reconciling conflicting sources on the Urnst states for my campaign. Do we have enough information to pinpoint a date for the “Hall of Heroes” write-ups in Greyhawk Adventures? I’m thinking it should be 579–580ish based on the publication date, but does anything about, say, Guiliana Mortidus or Korenth Zan tell us specifically when those snapshots were taken, so to speak?
    Encyclopedia Greyhawkaniac

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    Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:59 pm  

    Guiliana Mortidus (Night Dame, Old Lady)[C12][NPC]
    GA - 49,50
    TAB - 3,91,92

    Korenth Zan (Father of Obediance)[Mk16][M17][NPC]
    FTAA - 35
    GA - 44,45
    PGTG - 25
    TSB - 5,7,18-20,24,74
    WG8 - 110,112,118

    Might be able to reconcile some dates in the other references
    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:43 pm  

    Turin Deathstalker left Greyhawk in 582, according to From the Ashes, so it has to be prior to that. Likewise, Guiliana Mortidus escaped Molag in 582 according to The Adventure Begins. Living Greyhawk Gazetteer said that Karll didn't clean up the corruption in Leukish until just before the Greyhawk Wars, so Greyhawk Adventures represents some point before then.

    Beyond that, I think the status quo of Greyhawk Adventures probably applies to the whole period between 576 and 582, just before the war. Throughout that period, Karll was a ranger more concerned with his crusade than running his country, Guiliana was a cleric of medium rank in Molag, Derider Fanshen was Constable of Greyhawk, Jaran Krimeeah ruled the Valley of the Mage, Tysiln San served him as First Protector, Korenth Zan ruled the Scarlet Brotherhood, Ren o' the Star was Master of the Traders Union (he died in 583), Turin Deathstalker was Master of the Guild of Assassins, Org Nenshin was Master of the Thieves Guild, Nerof Gasgal is Lord Mayor of Greyhawk, Sental Nurev was Captain-General of the Watch (he was replaced in 583), Tang was "between jobs" in the Shield Lands (he was last seen leading a horde into Iuz's lands in 587 CY), and Timitrios Spartakos was in Greyhawk (no idea what happened to him). Nothing much changed for any of these characters in this period (Tang took various mercenary jobs, but could be said to be "between jobs" much of the time; Timitrios fell in and out of alcoholism, Sental Nurev fell deeper into blackmail, but basically Greyhawk Adventures accurately describes these characters throughout this six-year period. I don't think precise ages are given for any of the characters except for Timitrios Spartakos, who is 27 (though I don't think this can be true, as WG12, From the Ashes, and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer stated that Jaran Krimeeah ruled the Vale for "decades," "some decades past," and "a number of decades," and Timitrios was supposedly Jaran's apprentice prior to his exile, so he would have been, what, seven years old at most when he betrayed his master? I suppose that's possible, though it doesn't square with From the Ashes claim that Jaran Krimeah was exiled during the Rax dynasty, not the Naelax dynasty. Oerth Journal #18 had it that Timitrios was undead, having died nearly a century before).

    As an aside, who do you think the "neighboring lord" suspected of having Karll's sisters assassinated was? Could it have been Nerof Gasgal (Lord Mayor since 570 CY; Karll became Duke of Urnst in 572)? It's hard to imagine the County of Urnst or Nyrond was responsible. It could have been a laird of the Bandit Kingdoms, though it's a stretch to call those realms "neighboring." The Scarlet Brotherhood might have done it, framing some rejected suitor, but I feel like Greyhawk is the still most likely power to be so framed. Greyhawk Adventures suggested Nerof had several family members of a wealthy family that shunned him assassinated, so killing the daughters of the House of Lorinar for rejecting him might not have been beyond him.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:30 pm  

    It's strange how many Greyhawk products have been assigned a year equal to real-world passage of time, but modern Greyhawk fans and authors always took a hands-off approach with the "second wave" products.

    I've never found any better indicators than Rasgon's analysis. It's high time we lock in some dates, even if they're arbitrary.

    The Gygax era took us up to 579 with ToEE and the regional Dragon updates.

    1987 saw the joke WG7, the abridged S1-4, the genericized I12, and two Estes books, all of which we can ignore.

    1988 saw GH Adventures, Fate of Istus, and more Estes books. We know from Kuntz's modules that WG8 comes after T1-4 (579CY), so let's say 1988 = 580CY.

    1991's Five Shall Be One has to happen in 582CY.

    This means all of the products from 1989 and 1990 have to fit into 581CY or thereabouts: City of Greyhawk box and WG9-12 (1989), and WGA1-4 and Greyhawk Ruins (1990).
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:38 pm  

    rasgon wrote:

    As an aside, who do you think the "neighboring lord" suspected of having Karll's sisters assassinated was? Could it have been Nerof Gasgal (Lord Mayor since 570 CY; Karll became Duke of Urnst in 572)? It's hard to imagine the County of Urnst or Nyrond was responsible. It could have been a laird of the Bandit Kingdoms, though it's a stretch to call those realms "neighboring." The Scarlet Brotherhood might have done it, framing some rejected suitor, but I feel like Greyhawk is the still most likely power to be so framed. Greyhawk Adventures suggested Nerof had several family members of a wealthy family that shunned him assassinated, so killing the daughters of the House of Lorinar for rejecting him might not have been beyond him.

    I like the idea of Nerof actually doing something quite bad because he's such a softy otherwise, for a master thief of a Lankhmar-inspired city. Also, the border with Greyhawk is cited as one of the Duchy's many problems in the Guide.

    My runners up would be the mysterious Lorgan from the Gazetteer's list of rulers (perhaps a regent who held the throne until Belissica came of age), the Baron of Woodwych, or an internal enemy who made a coup attempt (a Maure-related noble from Selteran).
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:30 am  

    I think we’ve established that the City of Greyhawk boxed set is based in 582 CY, just prior to the Wars, though I don’t recall how that date was fixed. If it’s correct, then I think 580 CY works for Greyhawk Adventures. In GA, Derider Fanshen is described as “in her early forties”; CoG puts her at age 43 in 582 CY.

    rasgon wrote:
    As an aside, who do you think the "neighboring lord" suspected of having Karll's sisters assassinated was? Could it have been Nerof Gasgal (Lord Mayor since 570 CY; Karll became Duke of Urnst in 572)? It's hard to imagine the County of Urnst or Nyrond was responsible. It could have been a laird of the Bandit Kingdoms, though it's a stretch to call those realms "neighboring." The Scarlet Brotherhood might have done it, framing some rejected suitor, but I feel like Greyhawk is the still most likely power to be so framed. Greyhawk Adventures suggested Nerof had several family members of a wealthy family that shunned him assassinated, so killing the daughters of the House of Lorinar for rejecting him might not have been beyond him.

    How about Baron Bastrayne of Woodwych?
    Encyclopedia Greyhawkaniac

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    Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:30 am  

    DMPrata wrote:
    I think we’ve established that the City of Greyhawk boxed set is based in 582 CY, just prior to the Wars, though I don’t recall how that date was fixed. If it’s correct, then I think 580 CY works for Greyhawk Adventures. In GA, Derider Fanshen is described as “in her early forties”; CoG puts her at age 43 in 582 CY.

    rasgon wrote:
    As an aside, who do you think the "neighboring lord" suspected of having Karll's sisters assassinated was? Could it have been Nerof Gasgal (Lord Mayor since 570 CY; Karll became Duke of Urnst in 572)? It's hard to imagine the County of Urnst or Nyrond was responsible. It could have been a laird of the Bandit Kingdoms, though it's a stretch to call those realms "neighboring." The Scarlet Brotherhood might have done it, framing some rejected suitor, but I feel like Greyhawk is the still most likely power to be so framed. Greyhawk Adventures suggested Nerof had several family members of a wealthy family that shunned him assassinated, so killing the daughters of the House of Lorinar for rejecting him might not have been beyond him.

    How about Baron Bastrayne of Woodwych?


    Bastrayne of Woodwych (Baron)[F9][NPC]
    DRG#191 - 66
    TAB - 30,31
    WGR4 - 62,69,70,71,89,90

    I must have missed his ref in GA.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:15 pm  

    Jumping off what Vestcoat said, there's two easy-to-remember mnemonics that will serve in the vast majority of cases.

    This assumes there's no in-text date mentioned, as many modules (e.g. Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk) specifically mention when they're meant to occur.

    MNEMONIC ONE
    1983 Gold Box set published = CY 576
    from this point on, every year in the real world advances the timeline 1 year on Oerth; this must have been something agreed upon at TSR because the major sources follow this rule more often than not

    examples:
    1988 Greyhawk Adventures = CY 581
    1989 City of Greyhawk box set = CY 582
    1992 From the Ashes = CY 585
    1998 Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins = CY 591

    MNEMONIC TWO
    This was the specific dating agreed upon at the start of the Living Greyhawk Campaign.

    2nd half of 2000 (start of campaign)/2001 = CY 591

    Each subsequent real world year advances the Oerth year one as well

    2002= CY 592
    2003 = CY 593
    etc. etc. until
    2007 = CY 597 (the end of the Living Greyhawk campaign)

    There hasn't been any significant Greyhawk support from Wizards in the years since.

    My friend Carlos Lising mentioned to me that all of his Caslhawk modules are set in CY 600

    I vaguely remember a post on these boards from Casey Brown regarding his newer Bandit Kingdoms modules and what date they were set, but I'd have to dig through my notes.
    Encyclopedia Greyhawkaniac

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    Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:42 pm  

    I believe the last published material that advanced the timeline were the Expedition books around 2001.
    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:37 pm  

    JasonZavoda wrote:
    ]
    Bastrayne of Woodwych (Baron)[F9][NPC]
    DRG#191 - 66
    TAB - 30,31
    WGR4 - 62,69,70,71,89,90

    I must have missed his ref in GA.


    Bastrayne isn't in Greyhawk Adventures, but he qualifies as a "neighboring lord" and he's unpleasant enough that I think we definitely have to consider him a suspect in the Lorinar sisters' murder.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:41 am  

    Org Nenshen or Arentol would be candidates, as well. Either would have been members of the Directing Oligarchy, which is probably close enough to being a lord. You could even have it be that the assassinations were the reason Arentol stepped down as Guildmaster.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:45 am  

    LarethTheBeautiful wrote:
    Org Nenshen or Arentol would be candidates, as well. Either would have been members of the Directing Oligarchy, which is probably close enough to being a lord. You could even have it be that the assassinations were the reason Arentol stepped down as Guildmaster.

    I believe Arentol was killed in the war with the Beggars’ Union.
    Encyclopedia Greyhawkaniac

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    Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:42 am  

    DMPrata wrote:
    LarethTheBeautiful wrote:
    Org Nenshen or Arentol would be candidates, as well. Either would have been members of the Directing Oligarchy, which is probably close enough to being a lord. You could even have it be that the assassinations were the reason Arentol stepped down as Guildmaster.

    I believe Arentol was killed in the war with the Beggars’ Union.


    Arentol [NPC]
    AOE - 34
    COG:FFF - 38,44
    COH - 130,131,213
    DRG#301 - 89
    LGJ#4 - 9
    NA - 275-279,301,302,348,387-392,394-396,398
    SOOC - 45,76,78,79,87,88,91,144,339,350
    TAB - 62
    Novice

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    Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:50 am  

    I recall Gygax saying in one of his online Q&As that Nyrond was behind the Scarlet Brotherhood’s abduction of Thrommel. So a Nyrondese lord killing some Urnst nobles doesn’t seem crazy.
    GreySage

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    Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:55 am  

    Califor wrote:
    I recall Gygax saying in one of his online Q&As that Nyrond was behind the Scarlet Brotherhood’s abduction of Thrommel. So a Nyrondese lord killing some Urnst nobles doesn’t seem crazy.


    From Oerth Journal #12, "Thus Spake Gary Gygax":

    Quote:
    Q: Who were Prince Thrommel’s kidnappers?

    A: The Scarlet Brotherhood enacted the deed but they were in the
    employ of Nyrond.


    I was thinking that I couldn't imagine Archbold III caring that much about marrying the Lorinar sisters—he doesn't seem the type to take revenge for personal slights—but I can imagine his younger son, Sewarndt, being responsible.

    Thrommel is another matter. Archbold III might have personally okayed that project, since it's a matter of securing geopolitical dominance rather than personal vengeance.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:22 am  

    If Sewarndt was 25 in the Marklands, he would have been 10-12 when the Lorinar sisters were assassinated. And, he's Neutral, not evil.

    I'll plug my Nyrond's princes post.

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=9176

    I read the interview that Gygax gave where he named Nyrond, and I thought, in the full context of the interview, it was pretty obvious he was joking.

    I would instead suggest the one who hired the Scarlet Brotherhood to kidnap Prince Thrommel was none other than Prince Thrommel himself. As a paladin of Heironeous, he wished to accomplish great and glorious deeds, so he got the SB to "kidnap" him, where he was an adventuring paladin for many years. Perhaps he went to Western Oerik, where he was captured by agents of Iuz and placed in the Temple of Elemental Evil. Or, in my campaign, he adventured with a group under the name "Avras" and only returned when his group freed his father from the nefarious magicks of Sir Torc.
    GreySage

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    Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:56 am  

    LarethTheBeautiful wrote:
    If Sewarndt was 25 in the Marklands, he would have been 10-12 when the Lorinar sisters were assassinated. And, he's Neutral, not evil.


    Yeah, probably too young, unless he was influenced by other parties (for example, the Scarlet Brotherhood). But then, it wouldn't really be him behind it.

    Nerof Gasgal and Bastrayne aren't evil, either. That just speaks to the limitations of the nine-sector alignment system, in my mind. Lawyering the precise boundary between neutrality and evil doesn't seem like a good use of time. Sewarndt is neutral with neutral evil tendencies, so he's probably (as an adult) the most evil of the bunch, but Nerof Gasgal is the only one we know for sure will assassinate people for the crime of disrespecting him.

    Quote:
    I read the interview that Gygax gave where he named Nyrond, and I thought, in the full context of the interview, it was pretty obvious he was joking.


    I suppose he could have been joking, but I wouldn't say it was obvious. No one's obligated to accept it in their campaigns regardless.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:54 am  

    IMC, it was Archbold’s more pragmatic queen who signed off on Thrommel’s abduction. Lynwerd takes after daddy; Sewarndt takes after mommy (Odin/Thor, Frigga/Loki).
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    Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:15 pm  

    I went back to look at the Oerth Journal, and I was confusing that with a thread on Dragonfoot where 3 different people asked Gygax about Prince Thrommel's abductor and received 3 different answers, one with a nonchalant "how does that work?" at the end. Sorry for getting them mixed up.

    And, looking up the Arentol reference, TAB has him dying of natural causes after the war with the Beggar's Guild occurred.
    Encyclopedia Greyhawkaniac

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    Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:24 pm  

    LarethTheBeautiful wrote:
    I went back to look at the Oerth Journal, and I was confusing that with a thread on Dragonfoot where 3 different people asked Gygax about Prince Thrommel's abductor and received 3 different answers, one with a nonchalant "how does that work?" at the end. Sorry for getting them mixed up.

    And, looking up the Arentol reference, TAB has him dying of natural causes after the war with the Beggar's Guild occurred.


    I had the feeling Gygax found questions about Greyhawk annoying after he destroyed the Oerth so he just said whatever he was feeling at the moment in response to questions from fans.
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