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    Canonfire :: View topic - Square mileage of each country of the Flanaess is done
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    Square mileage of each country of the Flanaess is done
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    Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:09 pm  
    Square mileage of each country of the Flanaess is done

    hey all,

    I have completed a list of each country, forest, mountain range, hill, swamp and lake in the Flanaess with their associated square mileage (kilometers). I also added in the population figures for the countries based on the LGG. If you are interested in a copy of my excel sheet listing them all, just send me a Private Message in the Canonfire Discord chat and i will send it to you.

    Here is a sample:
    Country km2 Population Density
    Bissel 96552 123880 1.3
    Blackmoor 183058 110000 0.6
    Bone march 120016 310000 2.6
    Bright desert 194655 26500 0.1
    Celene 85360 140000 1.6
    Dunstrand 13215 20000 1.5
    Dyvers 13350 128000 9.6
    Ekbir 153256 1960000 12.8
    Frost barbs 158448 144500 0.9
    Furyondy 515663 1481800 2.9
    Geoff 117926 70000 0.6
    Gran March 112127 254600 2.3
    Greyhawk 35196 100000 2.8
    Hardby 15777 20000 1.3

    Rich "Longetalos" D.[/img]
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    Richard Di Ioia (aka Longetalos)
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    Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:33 am  

    I would vote for putting the whole thing online, either here or GreyhawkOnline. I don't need that information now, but I bet that I will someday.
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:01 am  

    That can be some helpful information, Longetalos. Thank you for compiling it. I agree with edmundscott that it would be easier for most of us here, myself included, to have it posted as an article to be accessed when needed.

    Some comments:

    I see that you included both cities and countries in your examples.

    I assume 'Ekbir' must be the city, rather than the nation, since its population density is in the same field as that of 'Dyvers'. However, I must assume that the population for 'Greyhawk' represents that of the Domain of Greyhawk rather than the city itself, since it is so much smaller than that of Dyvers and Ekbir.

    I am guessing that the population and density for the Bone March includes humanoids, since it is as high as Furyondy, etc.

    Did you mean 'Dullstrand' rather than 'Dunstrand'?

    Finally, would you please add square miles to the numbers so that the American fans among us Cool don't have to convert kilometers constantly. Happy

    SirXaris
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    Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:12 am  

    ok, i submit it as a Download article so people can download the Excel sheet as they need.
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    Richard Di Ioia (aka Longetalos)
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    Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:10 pm  

    By the way in case anyone is wondering why I went through all this trouble it was to figure out how much of a country is wild (i.e. appropriate to adventure in).

    Here is the math. It takes about 3 acres worth of food to feed an adult peasant each year. Most times, there are three fields (fallow, seed crop, food crop). So about 9 acres of farmed land per adult. Kids eat less, nobles eat more, but there are more peasant kids than nobles to lets call it an even 10 acres of farmland per person in a country. To be really safe, let's double that to 20 acres of "civilized" land per person in country. This should take into account livestock, tamed hunting areas, etc.

    Furyondy has a population of about 1.5M inhabitants.
    - 1.5M x 20 acres = 30M acres = 120,000 square kilometers.
    - Furyondy has 526,000 square kilometers.
    - Therefore about 77% of Furyondy is wilderness.

    So there are herds of herbivores out there, with plenty of carnivores (natural and magical) hunting them, lots of places for hidden cults, deep caves, renegades, etc.

    Basically everything needed to let the adventurers know that once they leave a village there is a lot of potentially dangerous wilderness out there -- even in a country like Furyondy.
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    Richard Di Ioia (aka Longetalos)
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    Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:02 pm  

    The Population Density Excel sheet is now in the Downloads section under MAPS.

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=4
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    Richard Di Ioia (aka Longetalos)
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    Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:57 pm  

    Longetalos wrote:
    By the way in case anyone is wondering why I went through all this trouble it was to figure out how much of a country is wild (i.e. appropriate to adventure in).

    Here is the math. It takes about 3 acres worth of food to feed an adult peasant each year. Most times, there are three fields (fallow, seed crop, food crop). So about 9 acres of farmed land per adult. Kids eat less, nobles eat more, but there are more peasant kids than nobles to lets call it an even 10 acres of farmland per person in a country. To be really safe, let's double that to 20 acres of "civilized" land per person in country. This should take into account livestock, tamed hunting areas, etc.

    Furyondy has a population of about 1.5M inhabitants.
    - 1.5M x 20 acres = 30M acres = 120,000 square kilometers.
    - Furyondy has 526,000 square kilometers.
    - Therefore about 77% of Furyondy is wilderness.

    So there are herds of herbivores out there, with plenty of carnivores (natural and magical) hunting them, lots of places for hidden cults, deep caves, renegades, etc.

    Basically everything needed to let the adventurers know that once they leave a village there is a lot of potentially dangerous wilderness out there -- even in a country like Furyondy.


    Awesome, Longetalos! I appreciate this explanation very much. :)

    SirXaris
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    Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:11 pm  

    Thanks for your hard work and for sharing, Longetalos, I find this very useful.

    The most surprising finding is that... most countries in the Flanaess have a lower population density than Canada (which has a population density of 4 people per square km)???

    That strikes me as unlikely... and a strike against Pluffet Smedger, the Elder's sources!

    This should generate interesting discussions regarding census data gathering methods in the Flanaess!
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    Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:45 pm  

    You should come onto the Canonfire Discord to discuss as we've been having this same debate for years. Some people find the numbers too high, others too low. It is an ongoing debate over which version of the Flanaess best fits EGG's vision.

    I fall into the camp that likes the Country numbers exactly as they are since it gives the beacon of light idea some weight. Lots of empty areas for dragons and anhkhegs to roam.

    What I have an issue with is that the populations of the main cities are too small. The top five big cities should be 1/3 of the total population of the country.
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    Richard Di Ioia (aka Longetalos)
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    Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:54 pm  

    Thanks for doing this work and making it accessible.

    Also, your notes / posts on the math and example regarding Furyondy were helpful: my new campaign is presently in Saltmarsh, but my plan (hope) is for the PCs to visit Monmurg and Port Toli soon, so comparing the population densities of Keoland and the Sea Princes is interesting and helpful.
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    Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:39 am  

    To help anyone out who wants to do something similar, I used the following tool to help me get the area of each country.

    https://www.sketchandcalc.com/

    The tool allows you to import an image then outline an area of the image. It then tells you the perimeter and the area size of what was outlined.
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    Richard Di Ioia (aka Longetalos)
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    Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:24 am  

    Longetalos wrote:
    ...It takes about 3 acres worth of food to feed an adult peasant each year. Most times, there are three fields (fallow, seed crop, food crop). So about 9 acres of farmed land per adult. Kids eat less, nobles eat more, but there are more peasant kids than nobles to lets call it an even 10 acres of farmland per person in a country. To be really safe, let's double that to 20 acres of "civilized" land per person in country. This should take into account livestock, tamed hunting areas, etc.

    Furyondy has a population of about 1.5M inhabitants.
    - 1.5M x 20 acres = 30M acres = 120,000 square kilometers.
    - Furyondy has 526,000 square kilometers.
    - Therefore about 77% of Furyondy is wilderness...


    -Ah! Your 3 acres of farmland per person is an average. Some farmland might be less fertile, other more. Perhaps we need a fertility factor. Also, that might give you the amount that you NEED to feed a person, but some places will grow a lot more food than necessary for various reasons: Exports (see that old map); Use by domesticated livestock; Use for alcoholic beverages (e.g., grapes to make wine, then it takes something like 5 gallons of wine to make 1 gallon of brandy). Also, some places will use farmland for clothing: Wool; Cotton; Flax (again, see that old map).
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    Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:30 am  

    Yep, you can play around with the amount of land used per population unit. Some people think it takes less, others more.

    Either way, the process works. People just need to adjust for their campaign.
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    Richard Di Ioia (aka Longetalos)
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    Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:03 pm  

    Very cool, and a very worthwhile effort. Thanks Rich!

    I still owe you a PM back on the country descriptions, should be able to get to that this month I think!

    Allan.
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    Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:41 am  

    Part of the reason the densities are so low might be very broadly drawn borders. The "city-states" (Greyhawk, Hardby, Irongate) have rather large areas listed.

    The city itself surely must be a few square miles at most. Even with surrounding villages and towns... Irongate is listed as larger than Delaware, Greyhawk as larger than New Jersey or Belgium!

    If the area considered to be "part of" that city-state was a couple of hundred square miles, like Andorra or Singapore, the densities might look more reasonable.

    Longetalos wrote:

    Furyondy has a population of about 1.5M inhabitants.
    - 1.5M x 20 acres = 30M acres = 120,000 square kilometers.
    - Furyondy has 526,000 square kilometers.
    - Therefore about 77% of Furyondy is wilderness.
    .


    Cool! Interestingly, this is just a bit higher density than the state of Wyoming (2.3 people/square kilometer).

    Longetalos wrote:

    What I have an issue with is that the populations of the main cities are too small. The top five big cities should be 1/3 of the total population of the country.


    I don't know... it's modeled on medieval Europe where IIRC a very small percentage of the population lived in cities.
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    Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:51 am  

    My reasoning for higher percentage of people living closer together is purely from a defensive point of view due to large magical predators.
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    Richard Di Ioia (aka Longetalos)
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    Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:58 am  

    Longetalos wrote:
    My reasoning for higher percentage of people living closer together is purely from a defensive point of view due to large magical predators.


    Ah, OK, that makes sense!

    I think there would still be a limiting factor due to how efficient farming is, though.

    If it takes 10 acres of farmland to feed one person, there's probably not all that much surplus, so more farmers per city-dweller.

    However, maybe farming in the Flanaess is a bit more efficient than that... In which case there would be less farmland, and nations would be "networks" of fairly small 'islands' of civilization/cultivation connected by patrolled roads.
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    Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:10 pm  

    If you go to the Canonfire Download and then Software area, you will find a Fiefdom and Settlement generator that covers a lot if this. You can customize it to your campaign.
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    Richard Di Ioia (aka Longetalos)
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    Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:59 pm  

    Cool, thanks!

    Yes, different assumptions can give a variety of pictures.
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