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The Greatest Naval Power of the Flanaess is...
| Stonehold |    0.82% (2) | | Greyhawk | 1.22% (3) | | Frost & Ice Barbarians | 3.67% (9) | | Rel Astra | 5.31% (13) | | Sea Barons | 14.69% (36) | | Scarlet Brotherhood | 33.88% (83) | | Irongate | 1.63% (4) | | The Pomarj | 0.82% (2) | | Furyondy & Dyvers | 28.16% (69) | | Hardby & Safeton | 2.86% (7) | | Keoland | 6.94% (17) | | Other (Please Comment) | 6.53% (16) |
Total Votes: 245
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| "The Greatest Naval Power of the Flanaess is..." | Login/Create an Account | 24 comments |
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Re: The Greatest Naval Power of the Flanaess is... (Score: 1)
by TwiceBorn on Tue, November 16, 2004
(User Info | Send a Message) | | Scarlet Brotherhood... if only by virtue of their access/stranglehold over the passage that connects the Solnor and the western seas, and their long reach (i.e., still controlling parts of the Hold of the Sea Princes and access to Hepmonaland and the Amedio...)... I would LIKE to say that the northern barbarians are the greatest naval power, but I just don't think that that currently is the case... |
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Re: The Greatest Naval Power of the Flanaess is... (Score: 1)
by GVDammerung on Tue, November 16, 2004
(User Info | Send a Message | Journal) | Furyondy is the greatest naval power in the Flanaess. Lake Whyestil is a Furyondian pond. The Nyr Dyv is a Furyondian Lake. In neither case is Furyondian naval power seriously challenged and in the case of the Nyr Dyv, Furyondy influences Dyvers, Greyhawk, the Shield Lands and the Urnst States, while protecting against piracy from the Bandit Kingdoms. That more is not heard of piracy on the Nyr Dyv, particularly from the Bandit Kingdoms, is a tribute to Furyondian naval power.
That Furyondy does not extend its naval power over vast distances, like the Scarlet Brotherhood, does not decrease an appreciation for its naval power for the Nyr Dyv is central to commerce in the Flanaess in a way the Solnor and Azure Sea are not. The Nyr Dyv is the heartflood of the Flanaess.
What is more, there is nothing to suggest that Furyondy could not project its naval power farther if there was cause. The Veng River is navigable between Lake Whyestil and the Nyr Dyv. From the Arsenal in Willip, the Furyondian Navy has access to all of its ships should there be a need to reposition them (allowing for the necessity of making the Molag run but the Veng is very wide there). The Nesser is also navigable from the Nyr Dyv to the Gearnat Sea, allowing Furyondy to potentially project power into Relmor Bay, Wooly Bay, the Gearnat Sea and the Azure Sea, if there was a reason to do so. There presently is not and the Furyondian Navy is at the limit of Furyondy's ability/willingness to pay to maintain it (with stipends from Dyvers and the Duchy of Urnst).
Looking at each power within its sphere and what interests it impacts and how much it does so, the Furyondian Navy is the preeminent sea power in the Flanaess.
GVD |
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I Buy Both Arguments (Score: 1)
by Greyson on Tue, November 16, 2004
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.donkbrown.com | I have no idea how to answer this question. But, I do see the reasoning of each arguement above. And I think they are distinctly different types of navy.
Where does Nyrond fit into the naval question? |
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Re: The Greatest Naval Power of the Flanaess is... (Score: 1)
by Cebrion on Wed, November 17, 2004
(User Info | Send a Message | Journal) | The Scarlet Brotherhood's navy is the most powerful by far. Their navy threatens the whole of the Azure Sea and Jeklea Bay in the west, and the southern portion of the Solnor Ocean in the East. It dominates the entirety of the southern waterways, namely the Densac Gulf and the Oljatt Sea.
Furyondy does remain the the mightiest of the land-locked navies however, but really only hinders a single enemy land- Iuz.
The Scarlet Brotherhood threatens the entirety of the southern continent.
The Scarlet Brotherhood's naval power is #1 hands down. |
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Re: The Greatest Naval Power of the Flanaess is... (Score: 1)
by Rostoff on Wed, November 17, 2004
(User Info | Send a Message) | Had to vote other. I might give it to the Scarlet Brotherhood, but they could always lose control of the Lordship, and then they would be in trouble. Furyondy HAS to be an option. I think I would vote them first if allowed. Although it is very close between those two.
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Re: The Greatest Naval Power of the Flanaess is... (Score: 1)
by abysslin (abyss@canonfire.com) on Wed, November 17, 2004
(User Info | Send a Message | Journal) http://www.canonfire.com | By (an odd) popular demand, I've added Furyondy by grouping it with Greyhawk.
Heh, I don't think either worthy of top 3, but perhaps a top 5 when grouped ) |
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Re: The Greatest Naval Power of the Flanaess is... (Score: 1)
by GVDammerung on Wed, November 17, 2004
(User Info | Send a Message | Journal) | The Scarlet Brotherhood’s navy covers more territory than that of Furyondy. That does not make it the “greatest” navy except in expanse covered. It says nothing about striking power and power projection within that sphere. In fact, from anecdotal evidence, it seems the Brotherhood’s reach almost always exceeds its grasp.
When Furyondy gets a hold on you, they bring it on home. Iuz essentially “Pearl Harbored” Furyondy on Lake Whyestil and Furyondy came back strong to displace Iuz on that body of water. Furyondian naval power is essentially unchallenged on the Nyr Dyv. Furyondy’s navy doesn’t cover as much territory but what they cover is more important economically to the Flanaess than that territory covered by the Scarlet Brotherhood and Furyondy covers the territory like a blanket, smothering all opposition. The Scarlet Brotherhood has great difficulty holding its far flung possessions; its expanse of territory is not a blessing and its navy is barely up to the job.
The Scarlet Brotherhood’s navy almost certainly has more ships than Furyondy. That does not make it the “greatest” navy except in sheer numbers. In terms of what can be done with what you have, Furyondy has the far more impressive record of achievement and accomplishment. It has secured its sphere in a way that the Scarlet Brotherhood can only dream of.
Beyond being better at what it does, in a more vital spot, the Furyondian navy has two more factors that speak to its greatness.
The quality of opposition faced by Furyondy is of a scale far more potent than that faced by the Scarlet Brotherhood. The Furyondian navy faces Iuz, was seriously defeated by Iuz and came back to regain the upper hand. The Scarlet Brotherhood faces no opponent comparable to Iuz and has never demonstrated an ability to come back from a serious defeat. When the Scarlet Brotherhood is defeated; they stay defeated.
Furyondy also has the greatest naval facility in the entirety of the Flanaess in the Arsenal in Willip. No other naval facility compares. Furyondy also has the finest resource for shipbuilding available to it - the Vesve. The timber resources of the Scarlet Brotherhood cannot compare. While no head-to-head battle between Brotherhood and Furyondian navies has ever occurred, it is not a great stretch to suppose Furyondian fighting sail would prove superior, numbers being equal, if only in terms of the ability to hang in the fight. That ability would derive from superior construction and training from the Arsenal and, if everything else were equal, would give the Furyondians an edge.
Size does not equal greatness. Striking power, power projection, training, the ability to hang in a fight, supply/resources, the ability to come back from a defeat and the ability to achieve goals that are commensurate with your resources are hallmarks of greatness. Furyondy outstrips the Scarlet Brotherhood in each of these. The Scarlet Brotherhood merely has a big navy that is overextended. They opened well in the Greyhawk Wars but are proving poor closers. They threaten much but imperil little.
IMO
GVD |
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Re: The Greatest Naval Power of the Flanaess is... (Score: 1)
by CruelSummerLord on Wed, November 17, 2004
(User Info | Send a Message) |
...Believe it or not, the Sea Barons! And by this, I mean in overall quality of their vessels, the ability of their captains and crews, and so forth. The Sea Princes used to be top of the heap, but most of their vessels are now in the hands of the Brotherhood, who are by no means nearly as skilled with their ships as the Princes themselves were. Even if most of the old Suel princes and crews remain to handle the ships, it still wouldn't matter; the Brotherhood IMC does _NOT_ do something so obvious as merge all its ships into one open navy.
Scarlet Brotherhood-controlled nations favor the Suel as the ruling social class, but that doesn't mean they all get along with each other. Given that the Brotherhood does its takeovers through subtlety and manipulation, only using its military forces as fodder or distraction, the Sea Princes and the Lordship of the Isles still enjoy a relative amount of autonomy, and they might still compete with each other like they would have before the Wars. The difference now is that they limit their competition to avoid hindering the Brotherhood's overall efforts. They can also work together to smuggle drugs and contraband to raise money, and to smuggle agents into foreign ports, but they would never openly unite in a naval attack; such a move would blatantly expose the Brotherhood's true colors to everyone. As it stands now, there is a lot of suspicion and a number of people who know the truth, but many more people still don't know what to make of the men in robes.
Ergo, there's no way the Brotherhood can have the strongest navy in the Flanaess.
No, the Sea Barons are the ones to beat now. Why? Well, they've clobbered the Lordship of the Isles on multiple occasions (according to Gary Holian, the Barons probably won two-thirds of the clashes between the two powers). And I also thought it would be a fun twist to have them repeatedly humiliate and embarass the Ice and Snow Barbarians when the latter raid the Barons. The fact that these decadent, soft pirates in the scattered islands have repeatedly shellacked the Barbarians when they raid is extremely shameful to the barbarians, and it just goes to show that the Barbarians are not guaranteed success on their raids, nor will they automatically win against other naval powers. |
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Re: The Greatest Naval Power of the Flanaess is... (Score: 1)
by Crag on Thu, November 18, 2004
(User Info | Send a Message) | The Scarlet Brotherhood is the Greatest Naval Force...simply put SB not only maintains an impressive blockade but also projects naval power in both major oceans and is exploring the southern jungles. No other Naval Power approaches this level of action.
Naval Power is a combination of Quality and Quantity, the SB main rivals the Sea Barons may be technically better given the shipyards at Oakenheart, but the Sea Barons still can't break the blockade.
Furyondy, plz for control of lakes and rivers.
Barbarian and Pomarj Fleets are built for hit and run raiding not warfare.
Keoland fleet is respectable but given the kingdoms land concerns can't devote enough resources to be the premier naval power.
Irongate and Rel Astra have fleets large enough to provide local superiority and coastal defense.
I have no idea why Stonehold is an option do they have a Navy?
Personally I would rather see Stonehold replaced with a western option like Sultanate of Zeif or Ekbir although both I suspect have fleets like Keoland respectable not overpowering.
Another replacement option is Lendore Isles apparently the elven warships are exceptional but the size of the fleet is unknown which worries both the SB and the Sea Barons (no easy task).
For right now, the seas are still SB Red.
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Re: The Greatest Naval Power of the Flanaess is... (Score: 1)
by GVDammerung on Fri, November 19, 2004
(User Info | Send a Message | Journal) | Furyondy is the greatest naval power. Expanding on my earlier comments.
(1) It is true that Furyondy operates on two lakes but, particularly the Nyr Dyv, these are “Great Lakes.” The vessels, particularly on the Nyr Dyv, are comparable to ocean going ships. To draw a comparison, during early and late colonial times, the British, French and Americans operated fleets on the North American Great Lakes, to include ships full the equal of ocean going vessels. The “lake” designation does not diminish the Furyondian navy.
(2) The quality and quantity of the wood available to Furyondy in the Vesve is superior to that available to the Scarlet Brotherhood. Hardwoods make the best ships, particularly oak. While there are tropical hardwoods, they do not compare in frequency, flexibility of use or durability to oak. Furyondy’s ships will be superior craft.
(3) “Canon” offers comments on the shipbuilding and port facilities of both Furyondy and the Scarlet Brotherhood. Furyondy’s support facilities are the superior.
(4) The Scarlet Brotherhood’s navy has fought few meaningful engagements and has notably lost some, most notably the attempted Keoland landing. Keoland’s fleet at the start of the Greyhawk Wars was minimal yet it stopped the Scarlet Brotherhood’s attempted invasion. A look at Scarlet Brotherhood naval successes reveals that the Scarlet Brotherhood navy is actually more like an armed merchant marine. They specialize in troop transport and making unopposed landings. They do not fight well. Their “blockade” is a function of geography, not naval strength.
Any comparison of the two navies that looks beyond mere size favors Furyondy as the greater naval power.
I would put the Sea Barons second after Furyondy. Theirs is a fighting navy as well. I think Furyondy has the edge over the Sea Barons only because of superior command and control and support/resources. Either one would send the Scarlet Brotherhood to the bottom.
A final note on size - The Spanish Armada. Bigger, more numerous, beaten by the English. |
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Re: The Greatest Naval Power of the Flanaess is... (Score: 1)
by Woesinger on Tue, November 23, 2004
(User Info | Send a Message) | Why isn't Ahlissa on that list!!!!???? :)
P. |
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Re: The Greatest Naval Power of the Flanaess is... (Score: 1)
by GVDammerung on Tue, November 23, 2004
(User Info | Send a Message | Journal) | [Voice Over] Port of Call: Gradsul. You've just made port after sinking a Brotherhood trireme. Now. You've got liberty.
Blond haired, pale skinned Suloise hookers in red leather.
Dark haired, short, bearded Dwarven hookers in mithral chainmail bikinis.
The Furyondian Navy. The only job that will ever love you back.
[Song] In the navy, we're talking Furyondy!
In the navy, we'll whip the Brotherhood with ease!
In the navy, the Furyondian Navy!
We want you,
We want you,
We want you as a new recruit.
[Voice over] Join - the Furyondian Navy. The greatest naval power in the Flanaess. King Belvor wants you!
GVD ;-D |
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